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England to Fort Myers SW Florida Intl Flight Information

Flights Arrive in Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
Flights Depart from England
Flight Price $472
Airlines KLM, British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, Delta, Lufthansa, United, Brussels Airlines, SWISS, Finnair, Aer Lingus

Book cheap flights from England to Fort Myers SW Florida Intl (round-trip)

Airports
Origin
London
$472
only
$472
$545
only
$545
$476
only
$476
Destination
Fort Myers
$472
only
$472
Tue, Oct 9
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
18h 40m
Wed, Nov 7
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
15h 24m
Trip: 30 days
7.7GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.7 Good
Based on 2,265 reviews
Overall
8.0
Boarding
8.0
Comfort
7.7
Crew
8.4
Entertainment
7.1
Food
7.4
SFO
AMS
Okay 5.6

Need better quality tvs for such a long flight and better movies There were only 4 Bollywood movies and not the latest ones either

EDI
AMS
Excellent 10.0

The cabin crew was so kind, efficient, and attentive. All meals and snacks were delicious.

AMS
SFO
Good 6.3

Food was excellent, frequent and filling

The seat was not comfortable compared to my prior leg of the journey. Unfortunately the bathrooms were not clean, I understand that it's not the sole responsibility of the crew and passengers need to be mindful too.

MSP
AMS
Mediocre 2.3

Travel on Crostian Airlines did not pappen. KLM flight to Munich was cancelled and I was rescheduled on Air Setbia to Belgrade, the Split.

That it didn’t happen.

ATL
AMS
Mediocre 2.0

Flight was cancelled.

Tue, Jan 15
LGW
London Gatwick
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
29h 16m
Tue, Jan 29
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LGW
London Gatwick
24h 20m
Trip: 15 days
7.3GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.3 Good
Based on 18,695 reviews
Overall
7.4
Boarding
7.6
Comfort
7.2
Crew
8.0
Entertainment
6.9
Food
6.8
BOS
LHR
Good 7.3

Boarding process was very orderly. The 2-4-2 seating arrangement is quite nice for economy as it is a bit more spacious & comfortable. Sat in window seat with a huge compartment storage next to me by window - great for easy access to electronics, etc.. Great movie selection. Short and efficient flight and my fears about basic economy ticket were dissipated as I was able to check a bag and get better seat assignment at airport.

Slow service, not served dinner until almost 10pm. Lights were never turned down so difficult to sleep altho I had eye mask and noise cancelling headphones. Seats are not super comfortable but if you bring neck pillow and blanket it’s better.

LHR
NCL
Okay 4.0

HHad to pay for even basic drinks No entertainment

SFO
LHR
Okay 5.0

Getting our bags through on a tight connection - great job Staff were helpful in finding a safe place for my bassoon.

inability to select seats without having to pay vast extra amounts of money is totally unacceptable. Ended up initially separated from my daughter and then on seats that did not recline. Flight left three hours late, nearly missed connection Next tine will fly Virgin. They look after their passengers!

SFO
LHR
Mediocre 3.6

Crew very helpful

New booking system where you cannot select seats without paying more money is outrageous. Will fly Virgin next time. Seats did not recline Flight left three hours late. Nearly missed connection. Very stressful experience

LHR
NCL
Okay 4.0

Having to pay for tea, coffee and water is outrageous Flight late.

Thu, Jan 10
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
16h 05m
Thu, Jan 17
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
11h 35m
Trip: 8 days
8.0ExcellentShow reviews
Overall 8.0 Excellent
Based on 1,251 reviews
Overall
8.0
Boarding
8.2
Comfort
7.7
Crew
8.4
Entertainment
7.9
Food
7.7
LAX
BNE
Excellent 8.6

Lots of leg room, even in economy.

Entertainment choices were a bit sparse.

LHR
IAD
Excellent 10.0

We liked everything about our Virgin Atlantic flight. They could not have been more helpful from the time we got our Boarding passes in London until we got off the plane in Washington DC.

There was nothing to dislike on this part of our trip with Virgin Atlantic.

LAX
LHR
Excellent 9.3

Staff. Very couteous.polite. friendly.

Good.entertainment choices.

LHR
LAX
Excellent 9.3

Crew was amazing and we got fed so often. The movie choices were good.

I wish I could have ordered a drink (pay or otherwise) from the tv in front of me

LAX
BNE
Excellent 10.0

food was great!

Tue, Jan 15
LGW
London Gatwick
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
28h 31m
Mon, Jan 28
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LGW
London Gatwick
18h 06m
Trip: 14 days
Overall 0.0 Poor
Based on 0 reviews
Tue, Jan 15
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
18h 35m
Tue, Jan 29
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
14h 26m
Trip: 15 days
7.9GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.9 Good
Based on 20,407 reviews
Overall
8.0
Boarding
8.1
Comfort
7.8
Crew
8.4
Entertainment
7.6
Food
7.4
BHM
ATL
Excellent 10.0

delay

LGA
DCA
Good 7.3

There was no rhyme nor reason for who boarded first

FLL
LGA
Good 7.3

Boarding is as usual chaotic

ATL
RIC
Excellent 10.0

Love the 757 entertainment system

snack mix is not great delayed takeoff

BRU
ATL
Excellent 9.3

The check in was well staffed and went smoothly and easily. Loved the large movie selection and picture quality.

Mon, Jan 21
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
17h 11m
Thu, Jan 31
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
13h 08m
Trip: 11 days
8.0ExcellentShow reviews
Overall 8.0 Excellent
Based on 23,053 reviews
Overall
8.1
Boarding
8.1
Comfort
7.9
Crew
8.5
Entertainment
7.7
Food
7.7
FRA
IAD
Excellent 10.0

Crew and food was good

LHR
FRA
Good 6.0

Flight crew made up time to arrive on time despite late arrival. They are pretty amazing - they got a plane hundreds of miles in the same time it took the ground crew to get my bag from the plane to the baggage claim.

Frankfurt is just an awful airport. Too many landings and not enough infrastructure. Also tired of planes having to park thousands of yards from the terminal. The time to get the bag is as long as the flight. Each about 55 minutes. There is very little about German efficiency here.

MUC
AMS
Excellent 8.3

Online check in, easy to board. Flight was on time.

I wish there was a vegan option for the food/snack onboard.

DFW
FRA
Excellent 10.0

Great plane & serive & big bathrooms

FRA
BOS
Excellent 10.0

Crew rearranged people before takeoff to allow elbow room. Excellent food, salad and vegetable with meat option to help with hydration, wonderful noodle.

Slightly too cool but I had an extra blanket and that is preferable to hot.

Mon, Oct 1
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
18h 44m
Sat, Oct 13
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
19h 45m
Trip: 13 days
7.0GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.0 Good
Based on 59,529 reviews
Overall
7.2
Boarding
7.4
Comfort
7.0
Crew
7.7
Entertainment
6.5
Food
6.5
MAD
IAD
Good 7.3

There is an insulation issue in the wall next to 35F...Wall was covered in ice cold condensation.

LAX
IAD
Mediocre 2.0

Nothing, the seats were really horrendous, the head rest was in such an awkward position that it was better to attempt to hunch over and try to sleep on the tray. The lack of leg room as well made it equally uncomfortable. Seriously, the most uncomfortable flight I have ever been on.

See above.

KOA
LAX
Good 6.0

The male flight attendant was friendly. The boarding personnel were friendly and apologetic for needing to check our carry ons.

seats are so uncomfortable. no space.

DEN
LAX
Good 6.0

The jet was nice. I was in Economy Plus. So, I had a little more room. There were no TV’s in the back of the seats in front of me. You have to have an tablet, and connect it to their wifi to watch a movie. (You don’t have to go through paying for internet. Just Connect to the wireless access point and then go to www.unitedwifi.com. From there you can click on Entertainment to watch movies for free. Or, you can see flight details like ETA, altitude, and speed from clicking on the top-right of the page.)

I didn’t like that the flight attendant didn’t even ask me if I wanted to buy a snack pack. I was starving, and had read the menu in their magazine in preparation to order food. She came by and asked me if I wanted something to drink. I said Coke please. She gave me a tiny cup of Coke which contained a little more than a swig of Coke, and then handed me a tiny pack of pretzels before turning away to serve the next guest. This was a 2hr flight. So, no big deal really. I wasn’t going to starve to death. But, I never got to eat. By the time the food service cleared and they were making their rounds to gather trash before landing, it was really too late to address the issue with them. So, I just sucked it up and spent my $9.99 elsewhere.

PDX
SFO
Mediocre 2.0

Crew was fine

I quit flying United years ago because of their poor management including delays and poor custimer service. I was stuck with United for these flights as my options were limited. Flight delayed, no surprise I guess. And now waiting for flight home that is delayed so I will miss my connecting flight.

Sat, Dec 29
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
26h 04m
Sun, Jan 6
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
35h 05m
Trip: 9 days
6.9GoodShow reviews
Overall 6.9 Good
Based on 1,867 reviews
Overall
7.1
Boarding
7.1
Comfort
7.0
Crew
7.6
Entertainment
6.4
Food
6.4
JTR
BRU
Mediocre 3.3

At least it was a flight

Noisy, no complimentary snacks nor drinks, no legroom

BRU
VCE
Mediocre 3.0

1) They left our luggage at Brussels, the lost and found desk in Venice that handles Brussels airlines was unmanned. Took 40 minutes to talk to a person. 2) Although promised to bring the luggage on the next day, only brought 2 days after! We had to buy some cloth and still waiting for response from them. 3) We almost missed the connection flight (we had almost hour and a half) because the line for connection flight security was enormous and only 1 person worked in the security. Not only that we were rushed by the crew to RUN (!!!) for the bus, that was ridiculous ! We could fall and hurt ourselves.

BRU
IAD
Excellent 9.0

extra taxi in DC

ZAG
BRU
Good 6.0

So so

But connecting flight is just 30 minutes delayed schedule because of airline benefits. I have to run the gate and I can make it but I heard 2 passengers didn't. I didn't hear this situation. When I ask staffs how about connecting flight to Nice, staffs just told me your flight is ok.

TLV
BRU
Good 7.0

Choice of food was very limited as they were missing the food in catalog.

Thu, Feb 21
LCY
London City Airport
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
30h 59m
Mon, Feb 25
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LCY
London City Airport
19h 15m
Trip: 5 days
8.1ExcellentShow reviews
Overall 8.1 Excellent
Based on 7,131 reviews
Overall
8.3
Boarding
8.3
Comfort
7.9
Crew
8.7
Entertainment
7.8
Food
8.0
FCO
ZRH
Excellent 10.0

Everything

ZRH
FCO
Excellent 8.6

There was too little space between rows. Sometimes it was too difficult to watch a movie because the screen was too close to my face.

AMS
ZRH
Okay 4.3

Too hot. Too late. Staff could have been more accommodating. Online checkin was impossible.

ZRH
ATH
Excellent 8.0

Very positive experience.

Flight was delayed because of a flight late arriving from Barcelona. Unlike an international flight...no entertainment & only a slight snack food. Still highest marks for the crew and the service that they provided

ZRH
DEL
Okay 5.0

Nothing!

Food was horribly salty. I got the middle seat between 2 men. One of the attendant s was taunting most of the people who asked him for anything.

Tue, Sep 25
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
15h 59m
Fri, Sep 28
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
13h 25m
Trip: 4 days
7.7GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.7 Good
Based on 3,181 reviews
Overall
7.9
Boarding
8.0
Comfort
7.5
Crew
8.3
Entertainment
7.3
Food
7.2
HEL
ORD
Excellent 8.6

The crew is excellent. Very friendly, professional, and helpful. Both on board and at the desk inside the airport. They listen to your needs and respond the best they can. Seats are comfortable enough for Economy. Good selection of movies to watch. The flight was on time and arrived even a little earlier than expected.

The food was filling, but not particularly tasty. For those seated toward the back, there was no choice. Although maybe there was no choice to begin with. Normally, on international flights, for the first (bigger) meal at least, you are given two choices, such as meat or vegetarian, beef or chicken. The food itself wasn't great. The salad was below average on both flight, from and to Chicago. So was the desert. Drinks are offered once with each meal in very small glasses. Although there is a bottle of water from the start.

JFK
CLT
Mediocre 3.6

Had to wait for substitute crew, and they had a bad attitude. Crew could be heard complaining as they sat in rear.

ARN
BGO
Excellent 10.0

Simple morning flight. Not at all full. Left on time, arrived early. Plane was new. Crew was happy. What more does one need? They were beta testing a new WiFi service. Free, but not yet ready for prime time.

ORD
HEL
Excellent 8.0

The flight was not crowded and that was a nice surprise for a transatlantic flight. Each passenger was offered a personal bottle of water upon boarding, cabin crew was very nice and professional. The flight was on time and we arrived at the airport of destination even ahead of time!

There was no soap in the toilet...

HEL
ORD
Good 6.6

Environmentally mindful with some packaging

There were no menu options for vegetarians on either meal. Several screens were not working, despite multiple reboot attempts.

Tue, Jan 15
LGW
London Gatwick
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
29h 16m
Tue, Jan 29
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LGW
London Gatwick
24h 20m
Trip: 15 days
7.3GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.3 Good
Based on 18,695 reviews
Overall
7.4
Boarding
7.6
Comfort
7.2
Crew
8.0
Entertainment
6.9
Food
6.8
LHR
AGP
Okay 4.0

Plane was new and very comfortable. Smooth flight

Flight attendants had to serve food/drinks, which they did the entire flight (literally, drink service took 2 hours). People got drunk and super loud. We were late leaving London which isn’t an issue except the people at the BA desk were the least helpful. We found out more from the pilots than anyone in the airport.

BOS
LHR
Good 7.3

Boarding process was very orderly. The 2-4-2 seating arrangement is quite nice for economy as it is a bit more spacious & comfortable. Sat in window seat with a huge compartment storage next to me by window - great for easy access to electronics, etc.. Great movie selection. Short and efficient flight and my fears about basic economy ticket were dissipated as I was able to check a bag and get better seat assignment at airport.

Slow service, not served dinner until almost 10pm. Lights were never turned down so difficult to sleep altho I had eye mask and noise cancelling headphones. Seats are not super comfortable but if you bring neck pillow and blanket it’s better.

BWI
LHR
Mediocre 3.6

Absolutely no leg room despite paying additional fee

LHR
IBZ
Good 6.6

No TV or entertainment. Very little leg room... !!

LHR
NCL
Okay 4.0

Having to pay for tea, coffee and water is outrageous Flight late.

Tue, Jan 15
LGW
London Gatwick
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
28h 31m
Mon, Jan 28
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LGW
London Gatwick
18h 06m
Trip: 14 days
Overall 0.0 Poor
Based on 0 reviews
Thu, Nov 22
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
24h 14m
Wed, Dec 5
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
12h 25m
Trip: 14 days
8.0ExcellentShow reviews
Overall 8.0 Excellent
Based on 1,251 reviews
Overall
8.0
Boarding
8.2
Comfort
7.7
Crew
8.4
Entertainment
7.9
Food
7.7
JFK
LHR
Mediocre 2.0

They lost my luggage, and ruined my trip, Customer service doesn't pick up the phone

LAX
BNE
Excellent 8.6

Lots of leg room, even in economy.

Entertainment choices were a bit sparse.

LHR
LAX
Excellent 9.3

Crew was amazing and we got fed so often. The movie choices were good.

I wish I could have ordered a drink (pay or otherwise) from the tv in front of me

LAX
LHR
Excellent 9.3

Staff. Very couteous.polite. friendly.

Good.entertainment choices.

LGW
MCO
Good 6.3

Crew were friendly and courteous

Poor drink selection. Food mediocre. I felt like I was in the living room of the Beverley Hillbillies. Loud people, dressed like slobs. No manners

Mon, Feb 4
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
17h 24m
Tue, Feb 19
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
13h 51m
Trip: 16 days
7.9GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.9 Good
Based on 20,407 reviews
Overall
8.0
Boarding
8.1
Comfort
7.8
Crew
8.4
Entertainment
7.6
Food
7.4
BRU
ATL
Excellent 9.3

The check in was well staffed and went smoothly and easily. Loved the large movie selection and picture quality.

LGA
DCA
Good 7.3

There was no rhyme nor reason for who boarded first

ATL
ORF
Okay 4.6

Free movies available in flight

Airplane temp never comfortable Airline staff not friendly Wheelchair service terrible

ATL
GPT
Good 6.0

fast flight

Wi-fi sucks

PIT
BOS
Okay 5.0

Crew was very kind

Delta delayed us SEVEN times and I type this as we are rounding our 30th minute waiting to get off the plane at Logan.

Sat, Feb 2
LGW
London Gatwick
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
15h 33m
Sat, Feb 16
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LGW
London Gatwick
12h 58m
$1026
Trip: 15 days
7.4GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.4 Good
Based on 5,158 reviews
Overall
7.5
Boarding
7.6
Comfort
7.3
Crew
8.0
Entertainment
7.0
Food
6.8
DUB
HAM
Mediocre 2.0

Nothing

Aer Lingus made us miss our flight and has us still waiting for a resolution after 22 hrs. This is the worst airline ever!

LAX
DUB
Mediocre 2.0

The pretzels.

The customer service from Aer Lingus is the worst ever. This is our honeymoon and it got ruined. The flight was 3 hrs delayed, and they started rerouting people that had connection flights to London, we had a connection and randomly Wendy the service agent decide to not reroute us because we had plenty of time, of course we didn’t make the flight, we have been hostages of Aer Lingus for the last 21 hrs so far, but more will be added until we make it to Hamburg tomorrow at noon instead of tonight at 8.

TXL
DUB
Good 6.0

Could not get seat assignments online when checking in.

DUB
LHR
Good 7.6

Everyone was helpful and pleasant to talk to

Online check in did not work. Could not check in and get seats until boarding in London

FRA
DUB
Okay 4.0

Kayak sold a ticket that doesn’t allow seat assignment. I contact you many times through email and phone and you have always wrong information. Very poor service.

Tue, Oct 9
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
18h 36m
Sun, Oct 28
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
28h 15m
Trip: 20 days
8.0ExcellentShow reviews
Overall 8.0 Excellent
Based on 23,053 reviews
Overall
8.1
Boarding
8.1
Comfort
7.9
Crew
8.5
Entertainment
7.7
Food
7.7
IAD
MUC
Okay 4.0

Cleanliness

It was late by 1 hour. Food was not enough. Was hungry since dinner was late due to delayed flight and breakfast was served at lunch time of MUC. Electrical outliets did not work in the flight and had problems in MUC for GPS.

FRA
OSL
Okay 5.0

Suitcase did not arrive, had a 3+ hours layover in Frankfurt, enough to get my bag sorted and sent to Oslo, but did not arrive

LHR
FRA
Good 6.0

Flight crew made up time to arrive on time despite late arrival. They are pretty amazing - they got a plane hundreds of miles in the same time it took the ground crew to get my bag from the plane to the baggage claim.

Frankfurt is just an awful airport. Too many landings and not enough infrastructure. Also tired of planes having to park thousands of yards from the terminal. The time to get the bag is as long as the flight. Each about 55 minutes. There is very little about German efficiency here.

FRA
IAD
Excellent 10.0

Crew and food was good

DEN
MUC
Excellent 10.0

Everything exceeded expectations. Lots of food, space, drinks, and excellent flight crew. Excellent video selection.

Wed, Feb 6
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
17h 08m
Thu, Feb 21
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
13h 50m
Trip: 16 days
7.3GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.3 Good
Based on 18,695 reviews
Overall
7.4
Boarding
7.6
Comfort
7.2
Crew
8.0
Entertainment
6.9
Food
6.8
BWI
LHR
Mediocre 3.6

Absolutely no leg room despite paying additional fee

LHR
INV
Mediocre 2.0

Missed connection from LHR to INV, now sitting 8 hours at LHR waiting for the next flight. In a word, a disaster!

LHR
SFO
Okay 5.0

BA cited computer glitch in London. Flights were severely delayed. Fortunately my connection was rebooked. Just minus 6 hours of my time.

LHR
NCL
Okay 4.0

Having to pay for tea, coffee and water is outrageous Flight late.

LHR
IBZ
Good 6.6

No TV or entertainment. Very little leg room... !!

Thu, Nov 29
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
19h 00m
Wed, Dec 12
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
13h 50m
Trip: 14 days
8.0ExcellentShow reviews
Overall 8.0 Excellent
Based on 1,251 reviews
Overall
8.0
Boarding
8.2
Comfort
7.7
Crew
8.4
Entertainment
7.9
Food
7.7
LHR
LAX
Excellent 9.3

Crew was amazing and we got fed so often. The movie choices were good.

I wish I could have ordered a drink (pay or otherwise) from the tv in front of me

LHR
SEA
Excellent 9.0

Food and snacks!!!!!

LAX
LHR
Excellent 9.3

Staff. Very couteous.polite. friendly.

Good.entertainment choices.

LAX
BNE
Excellent 10.0

food was great!

LHR
IAD
Excellent 10.0

We liked everything about our Virgin Atlantic flight. They could not have been more helpful from the time we got our Boarding passes in London until we got off the plane in Washington DC.

There was nothing to dislike on this part of our trip with Virgin Atlantic.

Wed, Mar 27
LHR
London Heathrow
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
18h 25m
Tue, Apr 30
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LHR
London Heathrow
13h 15m
Trip: 35 days
Overall 0.0 Poor
Based on 0 reviews
Tue, Jan 15
LCY
London City Airport
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
20h 50m
Tue, Jan 29
RSW
Fort Myers SW Florida Intl
LCY
London City Airport
15h 10m
Trip: 15 days
7.7GoodShow reviews
Overall 7.7 Good
Based on 2,265 reviews
Overall
8.0
Boarding
8.0
Comfort
7.7
Crew
8.4
Entertainment
7.1
Food
7.4
AMS
SLC
Excellent 10.0

The cabin crew was so kind, efficient, and attentive. All meals and snacks were delicious.

YEG
AMS
Excellent 10.0

Everything excellent. Comfortable seats in business.

SFO
AMS
Okay 5.6

Need better quality tvs for such a long flight and better movies There were only 4 Bollywood movies and not the latest ones either

AMS
MUC
Mediocre 2.0

Didn’t happen.

SFO
AMS
Good 6.3

The boarding was easy and you didn't have to wait inline for that long

KLM needs to upgrade the entertainment. It was very hard to see the images on the screen. The planes that KLM uses are old and they sure need to be upgraded.

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